I think the restaurant you are thinking of is the Apostolok.  And you are
right -- it is very good.

Marc,

I think Greg was sarcastic when he said,

>Get artists out of mine.  No public funding for the arts.  If it makes
>a soldier's life a little more tolerable to find spiritual solace in art,
>too bad.  Let them suffer.  After all, what do they do for me?

I don't know for sure and therefore I am only guessing, but I would say that
most Western armies have army chaplains and are being part and parcel of the
armed forces, including granting them ranks. Since the Hungarian army is not
a volunteer army, I think the army must provide religious services to those
conscripts who demand it. After all, out in civilian life they could attend
church on Sundays (or temple on Saturdays) if they wished so.

As for Andras's opinion concerning the popularity of Keleti's move, I have no
doubt. Hungarian society is exceedingly secular, if not anti-church. In spite
of appearances to the contrary, Hungarians have not been deeply religious in
modern times. The anti-church propaganda of the last fifty years further
influenced the population in this direction. However, I am not sure whether
this is a very good development. On the FORUM there is currently a discussion
on the high suicide rate in Hungary (double of the first runner-up, Japan)
and I looked up some statistics on suicides and religiosity, especially
Catholicism. In countries with highly religious populations (Ireland, Poland,
Italy) suicide rates are unusually low. (By the way, with that I don't want
to say that I discovered the reason for high suicide rates in Hungary. I am
aware of the complexities of the problem and that sociologists are unable to
come up with satisfactory explanations. I am only saying that the correlation
struck me as interesting.)

What I am not sure of is how much right a new government has in reversing the
decisions of a former government. If the successors can simply repudiate
decisions of their predecessors, we are left with a government which operates
in an arbitrary way. What is the case here? Eva Balogh

On Mon, 22 Aug 1994, bob hosh wrote:

> On monday, 22 August 1994, Attila "dessert instead of deaset" Hun wrote:

        Originally it was "dessert instead of desert" - oh well.

>         >>    Bob...az arpadhoni
>
>         >Would not be that; "Bob...az Arpad Hazi?"
>
>         No it would not. A number of people on the list know that I was born
 and
>         grew up in Arpadhon, Louisiana, U.S.A.  That is why I sign it:
>
>                 Bob...az arpadhoni

I am sorry Bob that I was not aware of your place of birth. Will you find
a place in your hart to forgive me? At the same time I would like to ask
those people on the list who knew about your place of birth. Please
forgive my ignorance.


                                Attila...a Budapesti

On Mon, 22 Aug 1994 22:55:31 -0700 Andrew Fulop said:
>I think the restaurant you are thinking of is the Apostolok.  And you are
>right -- it is very good.

--I think you are right!  Thank you very much!  I have tried to remember
the name for three years.

Charles

On 23 Aug 1994 Attila...a Budapesti wrote:

>I am sorry Bob that I was not aware of your place of birth. Will you
find a place in your hart to forgive me?.....

No offense! All is forgiven!!  :-)

        Bob...az arpadhoni

On Tue, 23 Aug 1994 14:41:38 +0100 Eva Durant said:
>Be prepared to be lost between all the Pizza Huts and McDonalds.

--Never go near them, myself, especially  when overseas.

Charles

Be prepared to be lost between all the Pizza Huts and McDonalds.

Greg Grose writes:
>Get artists out of [my hair].  No public funding for the arts.
You'll (perhaps) be surprised to find that I'm not much in favor of public
funding for the arts or for science. These things have value and all sorts
of people, groups, and institutions are willing to pay good money for them.
To the extent that art contributes to the local economy (as it certainly
does in Manhattan -- I don't mean the one in Kansas:-) some city/state
governments might find it advantageous to support arts as they would support
any other craft or industry. If the amount wasn't so minute compared the
rest of the budget, I would be inclined to make a big fuss about it, but as
it is, I think the issue is overblown.

>If it makes a soldier's life a little more tolerable to find spiritual
>solace in art, too bad.  Let them suffer.  After all, what do they do for me?
There are two completely different issues conflated here: first, what makes
life of a soldier more confortable, and second, formally integrating religion
into the Army. As we all know, bordellos make the life of a soldier more
comfortable, so by extension of your logic, these services should be
provided at state expense, perhaps with the Madame receiveng the rank
equivalent to colonel. Hey, nothing should be denied to our fighting boys!

To get this straw-man out of the picture, it's not because of budgetary
reasons that I'm opposed to giving priests and rabbis a formal rank or
having them integrated in any way to the army. Such a move wouldn't cost
much, and it surely would provide comfort to some soldiers, much as school
prayer wouldn't cost much and would comfort some children. But not in my
school and my army, not as long as I have any say in the matter. Sorry Greg,
as far as I am concerned (again, speaking strictly for myself and the
majority of Hungarians who happen to be atheists or just don't take the
established churces to be appropriate representatives of their religious
sensibilities) the soldiers (who are also voters, btw) will just have to go
on without all the wonderful spiritual guidance they would no doubt receive
otherwise. And no, I'm not opposed to giving physicians a rank in the army.
Does this imply that I think a soldier's mere life and bodily integrity is
more important than his immortal soul? You betcha.

Andra1s Kornai

Andra1s Kornai writes:

[deleted]

Let me just say that at least one of {Grose, Kornai, Nasdor} has a bad
funny bone; whether this has impaired the creation of satire, on the
one hand, or recognition of it, on the other, I'll leave open...  :-)

Maybe I should've assumed the identity of a militant vegetarian, and
denounced the military for serving meat to the troops.  Oh well.


--Greg

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It occurred to me that someone on the list might be pleased to
learn about the ad.   --  Noel

MHS:   Source date is:      23-Aug-94 15:15 EDT

UNSUBSCRIBE HUNGARY

Norb wrote:
> This is just not true.  How is the state or the "corporate sector" cozy
> with "the church?"  Does the state or the "corporate sector" consult "the
> church" in order to arrive at decisions?  Do the state or the "corporate
> sector" administer religious affiliation tests?

Influence, as you well know, rarely assumes such a blatant guise. "Cozy with
the church" is not the same as "consulting with" or your reference to religious
tests. I don't know where to begin: take elections for example. Can you tell
me that religion has no influence on the media or the electoral process when
election time rolls around? How many times have politicians had to kowtow to
the interests of "official" organized religions in order to be taken seriously
by the news media (who are the ultimate deciders of "qualified" candidates)?
Second example: all U.S. presidents, with the exception of Kennedy, have been
White Anglo-Saxon Protestants. If religious affiliation is so irrelevant, then
please explain this phenomenon. Following this, how are "serious" candidates
selected, what financial interests back them up? I'll answer the question: the
large donations come from the corporate sector and wealthy individuals, who
are dominated overwhelmingly by (see above ethnic reference). Third, on the
subject of religion, the very fact that only large denominations are afforded
respect speaks volumes about the so-called "tolerance" of the majority. Zen
Buddhists and Yoga Meditation societies are laughed off, but just try mocking
the Mormon church, a bonafide 19th-century UFO cult if there ever was one...

> When was the last time you saw someone declaring his heterosexuality on TV,
> or his religious affiliation for that matter?  Now _you_ tell me if
> that's censorship, or only self-censorship?

Pat Robertson declares his heterosexuality and his religious affiliation with
numbing regularity. But seriously, the only time someone would feel inclined
to declare one's hetero orientation, would be if heteros were being persecuted
by the majority the way gays are in the US, particularly in the Bible Belt, but
anti-gay violence is rising at an alarming rate, even here in New York

> P. S. I find your opinions somewhat strange since I live in the middle of
> the Bible Belt (the home of fundamentalism) and attend a church affiliated
> college, but am yet to see this pervasive influence that "the church" has
> on the state, private business, and the media.

If you don't see the pervasive influence of the clergy, you should open your
eyes and talk to people who have been denied work, have lost their jobs, or
have suffered orchestrated social ostracism because of their beliefs.
Anyone who has observed, or lived under, totalitarian or authoritarian regimes
will recognize this scenario.

I know that conservatives the world over love to mock the obsessive promotion
of social tolerance by liberals, but the present-day genocides in Bosnia,
Rwanda, etc. makes this cause at least as serious as welfare reform, no?

Marc

To Steve Carlson:

Tilos Az A closed????!!!!!! You're kidding, I was just there at the beginning
of July. I hope they held a proper wake. :-)

BTW, are you the same Steve Carlson who edited Budapest Week back in 1991?

Regards, Marc Nasdor

Eva--

I don't think the government operates arbitrarily. Give them some credit. :-)


Marc

Marc Nasdor wrote:

  > You won't want to leave Budapest without spending the evening and most
  > of the night at the hottest club in the city: Tilos Az A.

Well, that would have been the case last year, but the Tilos is now closed.
But anyway the Tilos had really hit it's peak in about 91-92. Since then
clubs have been opening and closing, and you really have a choice.

One hot place is an Irish pub named Becketts that just opened. Irish staff!
That's on Bajczy Zsilinszky ut and Alkotmany. Another trendy place is
Picasso Point - not my favorite, but a hangout for the yuppie ex-pat crowd.
The _Budapest Week_ usually lists the current hot spots in one of the back
pages. The _Sun_ also runs reviews.

Steven Carlson, Budapest

Eva Balogh asks:

> What I am not sure of is how much right a new government has in reversing the
> decisions of a former government. If the successors can simply repudiate
> decisions of their predecessors, we are left with a government which operates
> in an arbitrary way. What is the case here? Eva Balogh
>

 It seems to me they declare as many rights for themselves as neccesary in
the actual situation. Sometimes the written law doesn't influence them
either.

  Tibor Asztalos SZEGED