Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 954
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-03-27
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Anglo-Saxons (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: HUNGARY.0948..970321 (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
4 HL-Action: write New President at World Court (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: [Fwd: Re: Recent discussions about the economic sit (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  70 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Anglo-Saxons (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  (George Szaszvari)
writes:

>Just another little story...The US Marshal-Texas Ranger, Frank Hamer,
>of Bonnie & Clyde fame, offered to bring 50 ex-Texas Rangers to Britain
>in 1939 to help defend the good guys against the bad guys ;-)

This doesn't say much about Americans in general, but, brother, does it speak
volumes about Texans!
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Churchill probably should have taken Ranger Hamer up on his offer.




"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Denes BOGSANYI
> writes:

>
>The comment I WAS making was not that the Hungarian governments were =
>justified in bringing in numerus clausus but that they USED the example =
>of The Ivy League Universities as justification.

You are implying that Hungary followed some kind of lead from the U.S. in
erecting numerus causus. This is specious as far as the historical record goes.

> I think there is a =
>great difference. With regard to the other point, the numerus clausus =
>legislation in Hungary was enacted in 1920, Hitler first appeared on the =
>scene in 1923 and did not come to power until 1932. I think I need not =
>expand!

It's just as well that you don't. You'd probably still get it wrong. There were
plenty of German political thinkers and philosophers in the immediate post-war
era, men like Carl Schmitt and Ernst Junger, who gave shape to a far-right
philosophy embracing many of the same vulgarities which gave rise to German
national socialism and Hungarian anti-Semitism. I suggest you start there
looking for the wellspring of numerus clausus rather than in the U.S. and
Britain.

>Hungary in 1920 had just lost 2/3rd of its territory and a large =
>proportion of its industry. It was not in a position economically, when =
>thousands of refugees were living in railway carriages, to expand the =
>number of places at university level. Therefore it was a matter of =
>redistribution of the available places. I hope that clarifies.

Lord help us, Denes. You're indefatigable, I have to give you that much. This
was a peculiarly narrow "redistribution" in that it didn't seem to take much
heed of providing additional places in the university for a lot of lower-class
Christian urban factory workers and rural peasants. So you're now pleading
economic necessity as a legitimate basis for numerus clausus?
Sam Stowe



"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.
+ - Re: HUNGARY.0948..970321 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zimanyi
Magdolna > writes:

>
>IMHO I can clearly distinguish between a regulation of a university
>and a law passed by Parliament in a country. I think that other people
>can see the difference, too.

Let me introduce you to Denes. Denes, this is Magdolna. Magdolna, this is
Denes. Magdolna has something she'd like to try to explain to you, Denes. You
two crazy kids have fun.
Sam Stowe


"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.
+ - HL-Action: write New President at World Court (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
  Normal

Background:
   The International Court of Justice has elected a new President,
Stephen Schwebel, professor of law at The Johns Hopkins University in
America.  Since the new President probably does not know the details
about the upcoming Danube lawsuit yet, it is important that we inform
him.  It is likely that the new President would be receptive to a
letter campaign.
   We have to convince President Schwebel about the Compromise
Plan proposed by Bela Liptak and environmental organizations. This
plan ensures the survival of the Danube Wetlands.

What to do:
   Please send a letter to the new President of the World Court,
Stephen Schwebel.  Ask him to rule in favor of the environment; that
is, to consider the Compromise Plan.  Feel free to use the sample
letter below.  Unfortunately we do not have the e-mail address. Please
do not hesitate to send him a fax.  EVERY FAX IS IMPORTANT!!! PLEASE
ACT!! ASK YOUR FRIENDS TO JOIN YOUR REQUEST!!
   Fax number:  ++31-70-3649-928

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<date>

The Honorable Stephen Schwebel
President of the International Court of Justice
Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ,
Den Haag
The Netherlands
FAX: ++31-70-3649-928

Dear Mr. President:

Congratulations on your well-deserved appointment as the new
President of the International Court of Justice.  Your professional
background is sure to further increase the reputation of the Court.

This year, for the first time in history, your Court will decide on an
environmental lawsuit which affects all humankind.  In ruling on the
future of the Danube in the dispute between Hungary and Slovakia, you
and your fellow judges can set a precedent by ruling that rivers,
forests, and oceans are not the sole properties of nations, that
nations do not have the right to destroy unique ecosystems.

The ecosystem of the Szigetkoz is dying due to the tragic drop in
groundwater level which is caused by the rerouting of the Danube. This
region, which was the oxygen supply of the Danube, has been destroyed
because the lung of the river (the wetland region) has been cut out.
Shipping on the Danube has suffered because of flimsy construction and
because the dam is not designed to handle ice.  Most importantly, the
population of the region is in physical danger and two-thirds of the
populations of Dobrohost, Vojka and Bodiky have already fled.

The Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment has submitted to
the Court a Compromise Plan to return the Danube into its natural
riverbed.  I hope and trust that the Court will save the ecosystem of
the Szigetkoz by giving this Compromise Plan serious consideration as
it makes its historic ruling.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe writes:     (parts deleted)


>It's just as well that you don't. You'd probably still get it wrong. There wer
e
>plenty of German political thinkers and philosophers in the immediate post-war
>era, men like Carl Schmitt and Ernst Junger, who gave shape to a far-right
>philosophy embracing many of the same vulgarities which gave rise to German
>national socialism and Hungarian anti-Semitism. I suggest you start there
>looking for the wellspring of numerus clausus rather than in the U.S. and
>Britain.

I do object to your assumption that there is or was any special propensity
in Hungary in regard to the initiation of antisemitism. There was just as
virulent or even more so antisemitism expressed, as an example, by British
political writers even prior to the WW I as anywhere in Hungary. An
outstanding example is Seton-Watson who "became" anti-Hungarian because of
antisemitism. He is on the record in stating that scratch any Hungarian and
you find a Jew. If you or anyone alse is interested I can dig out the exact
quotes. His basic premise in making the statement was that the Hungarians
were oppressing the minorities, but the oppression was by Hungarian Jews.
These and similar statements were made by him before any laws relating to
proportional admission to universities were in existence.
There are others of his ilk who published similar statements.

There is nothing to excuse anyone for racial hatred or discrimination, but
lets not get sanctimoneous about the general problem of antisemitism and
blame only one country or a particular population in toto. Our family has
saved two Jews during the turmoil of Hungary, one by hiding, one by post
facto adoption and changes in the birth and marriage certificates. Both
people survived the war. How many Jews did you save? Please do not use the
general US participation in WW II as an answer.

If you want to accuse anyone, do it individually, I do resent your
generalizations.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:57 PM 3/26/97 GMT, San Stowe wrote:
>There were
>plenty of German political thinkers and philosophers in the immediate post-war
>era, men like Carl Schmitt and Ernst Junger, who gave shape to a far-right
>philosophy embracing many of the same vulgarities which gave rise to German
>national socialism and Hungarian anti-Semitism. I suggest you start there
>looking for the wellspring of numerus clausus rather than in the U.S. and
>Britain.

        Even closer to home. Try Austria where the Fuehrer himself came
from. Karl Lueger, for example. ESB
+ - Re: [Fwd: Re: Recent discussions about the economic sit (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 08:01 PM 3/26/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>
> >Take, you are not gonna answer. That4s answer enough. M
>
> I'll answer you.  No, I did not read the interview with Havas Gabor.  My
> Hungarian reading skills are not good enough for serious reading.
>
> I'm sorry for commenting on the title without reading the piece, first.
> Sometimes I have trouble following the rules.
>
> Joe Szalai
Well, he was talking about the grey and the black economy, with
increasing shares, helping the poor to get along ( therefore, not
as poor as you would believe ) and giving an extra opportunity those in
the power to enrich themselves...only, he was much more detailed and
more thorough than me.
Take care, Joe
Miklos
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe wrote:
>
> In article >, Denes BOGSANYI
> > writes:
> >
> >The comment I WAS making was not that the Hungarian governments were
> >justified in bringing in numerus clausus but that they USED the > >example o
f
 The Ivy League Universities as justification.
>
The question for me is, whether they in fact used this justification.
Eva4s comment made me hesitate. I think, Denes could give us a lead.

> You are implying that Hungary followed some kind of lead from the U.S. >in
 erecting numerus causus. This is specious as far as the historical >record
 goes.
>
Please help me, Sam! Are you trying to say that the people of the
U.S.A. are, were above such ideas as numerus clausus? Forgive. if
I err somtimes having this slight perception. I am "americaphil ",
but by all sympathy, I am aware of dark stains on those historic
records, too. I UNDERSTAND - in the sense : I grasp the circum-
stances, the human reaction leading to them - many of them, without
approving of them.

> > I think there is a =
> >great difference. With regard to the other point, the numerus clausus
> >legislation in Hungary was enacted in 1920, Hitler first appeared on > >the
 scene in 1923 and did not come to power until 1932. I think I > >need not
 expand!
>
> It's just as well that you don't. You'd probably still get it wrong. >There
 were plenty of German political thinkers and philosophers in the >immediate
 post-war era, men like Carl Schmitt and Ernst Junger, who >gave shape to a
 far-right philosophy embracing many of the same >vulgarities which gave rise t
o
 German national socialism and Hungarian >anti-Semitism. I suggest you start
 there looking for the wellspring of >numerus clausus rather than in the U.S.
 and Britain.
>
The roots of antisemitism in non-aglo-saxon and in anglo-saxon countries
would be a quite different topic. I am not quite sure
that the origin was in post WWI Germany.

> >Hungary in 1920 had just lost 2/3rd of its territory and a large =
> >proportion of its industry. It was not in a position economically, > > >when
 thousands of refugees were living in railway carriages, to > > >expand the
 number of places at university level. Therefore it was a  > >matter of
 redistribution of the available places. I hope that > >clarifies.
>
Denes, can you support this with some more fact?

> Lord help us, Denes. You're indefatigable, I have to give you that >much. Thi
s
> was a peculiarly narrow "redistribution" in that it didn't seem to >take much
> heed of providing additional places in the university for a lot of
 >lower-class
> Christian urban factory workers and rural peasants. So you're now >pleading
> economic necessity as a legitimate basis for numerus clausus?

Sam, don4t you twist his statements in such a way that you may
look down on his moral inferiority? Again, forgive, if I err.
In my perception, he was expaining what he believes happened.
IMHO, he didn4t say : it is a legitimate basis. Economic nece-
sity explains a lot. But explaining alone DOES NOT LEGITIMATE.
As already said, it is necessary to understand the different
mechanisms working in real-existing situations...
>
I hope you4ll have good Easter days
Miklos

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