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Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Media watch (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
2 Horn and foreign policy (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
3 Another Baseless Conjecture (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
4 >You probably meant Kodaly. (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Horn and democracy (mind)  126 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Direct democracy Was: Horn and democracy (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Media watch (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras Kornai wrote in commenting on my message accompanying excerpts from
Istvan Deak's article:

>> But my feeling is that there will be a few mistakes, similar to the
>> appointment of the media chiefs, in between. Eva Balogh
>The last thing I heard (two days ago) was that the new chiefs are just as
>stupid as the previous ones, and that a lot of people now try to even the
>score, "in true Babiczky spirit"*. How sad.

I was afraid of this after reading a few pieces in *168 ora.* There was a
vengeful spirit there, especially in the editorials of a journalist called
Gyo3zo3 Ma1tya1s. In an editorial entitled "Mi legyen itt?" (What should
happen here) (*168 ora,* June 21, 1994, p. 3) He writes thus: "Olvasom, hogy
Boross doktor kezdemenyezte a ket hirhedett alelnok felmenteset. Remelem,
senki illetekes--pro es kontra--nem gondolja komolyan, hogy az alelnokok
ennyivel meg is uszhatjak eddigi randalirozasukat. Plusz vegkielegites. Vagy
hogy az az urak, akik ezeket a figurakat a nyakunkba szakajtottak, nem
hiszik, hogy ezzel a lepessel babjaiknak `szabad elvonulast' alkudhatnak ki.
S remelem azt is, hogy a gyoztesek nem lesznek a szuksegnel es indokoltnal
nagyvonalubbak, ugyanis volt itt vagy ket ev garazdalkodas, tonkretett
emberek, szetzuzott intezmenyek, ezert valakiknek felelniuk kell. Ugyanakkor
az is kovetelmeny, hogy ebben a demokracia sorsara nezve szimbolikus ugyben
ne a `most mi jovunk' szimpla revansvagya mukodjek, mert akkor minden
folytatodik ugyanugy." I am not very good at translating because English and
Hungarian exist in mind head quite independently from each other; so I hope
the translation will be good enough to get the flavor of this piece. ("I have
been reading that Dr. Boross initiated the dismissal of the two notorious
vice-presidents. I hope nobody who has anything to do with this affair--pro
or con--seriously thinks that the vice-presidents can get away that easily
after the amount of damage they caused. Plus severance pay. Or, that those
gentlemen who are responsible for dumping these characters on us don't
believe that with this move they can buy a `free exit' for their puppets. And
I also hope that the victors will be not unduly and unnecessarily generous
because there had been two years or so of pillage, ruined people, crushed
institutions and somebody must answer for all this. At the same time one must
be careful for not allowing the feeling a revanche to appear, saying `now we
are coming,' because then everything will remain the same." This last
sentence especially amuses me after what was written before in the paragraph.

I gathered also from *168 ora* that the new (old) crew of the evening news of
the Hungarian TV appeared sometime in the morning on the first day of the
changeover, and the old crew was told to get out. They will do tonight's
show, say said. They didn't want to use the old crew's material unless
perhaps if the Eifel Tower collapsed during the day! I hope the evening news
was at least passable under the circumstances. Eva Balogh

I am sure that most of you also read a news item according to which Janos
Betlen, the head of the evening news, appeared on TV himself to explain the
the coverage of the dismissal of Istvan Sabjanics, head of the Republican
Guard (Koztarsasagi Orezred) and apologize. The new crew of the evening news
claimed that Sabjanics was dismissed because he had been collecting
information on Hungarian citizens for Jozsef Antall. During his appearance
Betlen announced that he never wanted to appear on the screen himself but now
he had to change his mind because "Olyan vetseget kovettunk el, hogy erre az
alkalomra fel kell fuggesztenem az elhatarozasomat.  Egyetertek Boross
Peterrel abban, amit kozlemenyeben ir.  Magam is ismertem az elhunyt
kormanyfot, es nem volt semmi ketsegem soha afelol, hogy a jogallam szent
neki.  Nagy lelkifurdalast erzek tovabba, mert a musorban alaptalan es
serelmes hireszteleseknek adtunk hangot a Koztarsasagi Orezred tavozo
parancsnokaval, Sabjanics Istvan dandartabornokkal kapcsolatban.  Szeretnek
elegtetelt adni neki erte, amennyire egyaltalan jova teheto, ami tegnap
elhangzott." (In summary, Betlen felt remorse for allowing such unfounded and
damaging accusation to appear in his program. He was personally acquainted
with Jozsef Antall, and he never had any doubt that legality was sacred to
the former prime minister. He would also like to make up to General Istvan
Sabjanics if that was at all possible.)

Considering that we heard so much about the expertise of the group which was
dismissed in favor of another group, consisting of absolute neophites, this
is a rather sad commentary on the so-called exerperts. Bumpy road ahead, I am
afraid. Eva Balogh
+ - Horn and foreign policy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Dear Eva,
>>  [...] Horn made contradictory statements about NATO and the European
>> Union--topics we have been discussing on this list.
> Uhm, "discussing" is used a bit broadly here - we ended up with your
>not showing the alleged contradictions in his "utterancr than
>in your own interpretations), did you ;-(?!

Zoli wrote. I quoted Horn's utterances on NATO and the European Union fully.
I find them contradictory or, if you prefer, inconsistent. Obviously, you
disagree. In my mind, each reader can decide on his/her own whether these
statements are contradictory/inconsistent, or not. I don't have to prove or
show anything. Eva Balogh
+ - Another Baseless Conjecture (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Anxious to avoid any further charges of "semi-informed Horn-bashing",
I have decided instead to engage in baseless speculation and innuendo.
I found something in Mr. Horn' past far more damaging than padded jackets
and other youthful pecadilloes.  Something really dirty and embarrassing.
Something worse than the "Fathers and Sons" smear campaign of 1990.
What is the dirty family secret Mr. Horn has been trying to hide
all these years?  It is the dreaded Utah Connection.  The man may be
related to Republicans.

I may be wrong about this, but there must be others besides me among the
semi-informed multitudes who looked at the pictorial evidence, and pondered
this question: are Gyula Horn and Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch twin brothers,
separated at birth?  Is there a conspiracy afoot to deny the obvious?
Is the press party to it?  And what is the role of Soros in all this?
(Wink, wink, nunge, nudge.)  Need I say more?

Gabor Fencsik

+ - >You probably meant Kodaly. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

--Right!  Thank you!  Gin is an unforgiving mistress!

+ - Re: Horn and democracy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Subject: Horn and democracy
From: EvaB459762
Date: 28 Jul 94 18:01:28 GMT
In article > ,  writes:
>I wrote:
>> One needs schooling
>> in democratic principles which for somebody not immersed in it may find
>> baffling at first. I found that many of my Hungarian acquaintances
>> have much idea about the principles of democracy as practiced, for
>> in the United States.
>Eva Durant answered:
>> Yes, I am baffled, too. Is it true, that 60% or less of those eligible
>> feel it worthwhile to register their vote, so governments are
>> elected by circa 30% of voters?
>I wasn't speaking about participation in that democracy. What I had in
>was legal protection of individual rights. The Constitution of the United
>States and its subsequent interpretation ensures wideranging protection
>the individual--according to some people the extent of that protection
is in
>fact too far-reaching. It is this individual freedom which makes the
>States such an attractive place to live. Continental Europe's history was
>such that authoritarian reflexes can still be felt even in democratic
>countries, like France or Germany. In Hungary it is even more so. Just
>recently I read in a Hungarian newspaper an interview where the
>was talking about too many old faces from the pre-democratic regime in
>new government and the possible return of "wrong reflexes." These
>automatic, wrong, meaning undemocratic, reflexes have a long tradition in
>Hungary and it will take time and schooling to get rid of them. Just one
>small example. On the very first day of my last trip to Hungary I was in
>car driven by a relative of mine. Suddenly, two policemen, strategically
>standing and waiting for their victims, stopped us and did a spot check
at my
>poor relative's papers. There was no probable cause. In the United
>the police don't stop passanger cars traveling in towns or on highways
>without probable cause. My relative wasn't speeding, had working
>had all his four wheels on his car, had a registration number and so on
>so forth. When something like that happens in Hungary I get a very bad
>in my mouth and immediately thank God for my good fortune for living in a
>truly free country. Eva Balogh

i'm not sure whether we are talking about the same united states of
but when i spent some time there --- in columbus ohio, i from september
1985 to march 1986 to be precise --- i had  the less than pleasurable
of driving along the main road and being stopped by two policemen, and
asked for identification. that by itself would not have not bothered me,
all, growing up in a totalitarian society like australia, where police do
random checks of motor vehicles and motorists, i was accustomed to such
tactics. i *did* become frightened and apprehensive when of the two
only one approached the vehicle while the other drew his service
revolver.  but
perhaps my appearance or driving style aroused suspicion. i abiding by
the speed limit, didn't meander from lane to lane. i was clean-shaven and
been smiling, wearing ordinary clothing.the car had all four wheels, the
headlights were working, the number-plates were clearly visible. but
maybe that
counts as "probable cause" in the united states of america.

the only similar experiences i had had before was the treatment by the
(west) german border guards on the train from basle to amsterdam in 1975
who threatened us with his pistol because i tried to re-open the carriage
window of a train moving at some 130 km/h after he had closed it --- no
discussion, just a drawn revolver and "es bleibt zu!"

during my stay in columbus, ohio, i had the dubious pleasure of sitting
in one of the establishments across on one of the main streets and seeing
members of the police force "treat" one of the down-and-outs, mindful of
his "constitutionally guaranteed civil rights". in all my times in
and other european countries, i had not seen anything like it. i
the two officers and was tolled to stay away and forget what i had seen if
i knew what was good for me. to my shame, i let myself be intimidated.

i immediately thanked my parents for my good fortune in not living in
such a truly free country.

many other of my experiences during my time in the u.s.a. convinced me
that i am not ripe for "democracy and freedom u.s. style". it was quite a
disappointment for me, because i had gone there with quite different
expectations, and with an eye to possibly staying there. for a long time
had wished we had migrated there rather  than to australia. ironically,
perceptions were shared by most of the europeans i met there. there were
eight hungarians there, all of whom had gone to the u.s.a. to study with
intention of *not* returning to hungary. seven of the eight did as soon
they had completed their studies. the eighth was looking for jobs in
canada, england, australia or new zealand.

of course, my experiences are not the measure of all things, and there are
many others whose experience is different, and who evaluate their
experieneces differently. after all, the iunited states has no lack of
potential migrants.  but when i read your posting, i wonder if we are
speaking of the same country.

+ - Re: Direct democracy Was: Horn and democracy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Subject: Direct democracy Was: Horn and democracy
From: greg
Date: 29 Jul 94 19:04:33 GMT
In article > ,
>I forwarded Mr Kanala's postings to a Swiss citizen working here, he
>considered it "generally accurate" as far as the voting percentages and
>the description of the process.
>Another co-worker had this to say:
>                                ***
>I don't know anything about [Swiss] voter turnout percentages.  I don't
> they
>can be used to argue whether or not there is really democracy.  It might
>that the _threat_ of a vote is the most important thing about a
>not the vote itself.
>In a two party system if people don't vote because
>they find it difficult to distinguish the two candidates, then it is
>they have already "voted" by being considered in opinion polls and in
>development.  The final vote is just to confirm that the parties haven't
>touch with the people.  If  a party drifts too far from the people the
>turnout would surely be large, especially for a high position.
>                                ***

the percentages are miserable. i argued and still maintain, that the low
participation rate is an indication of the lack of faith the citizens
have in their democracy's being democratic, especially in view of the
various polls of the non-voters which showed that the biggest proportion
--- i believe it was a substantial majority, but i do not recall exact
figures --- gave as the reason: it doesn't matter what how i vote anyway.

anectdotes, such as the old people's home in beromuenster, do not prove
anything individually, but they do epitomise what seems to be common
enough. certainly it is far from an isolated example.

but it seems to me to be very much like "racialism". ask a person directly
"are you a racialist?" and the vast majority will answer "no. i'm not."
probe attitudes indirectly and examine behaviour and a different picture

"of course we live in a free and democratic society!" would be the answer
most frequently given in countries such as the u.s.a., u.k., switzerland,
france, germany. but if one examines critically the manner in which these
societies, a different picture emerges.