Jarmo Ryyti wrote:

> And most of the Fenno-Ugric languages. Lennart Meri, august 1995
> in Jyva"skyla":  "Out of the 23 Uralic peoples only three have been
> able to establsih their own states."


	Are you saying that political entities are to be based on "peopledom,"
which in this case seems to coincide with linguistic divisions...?????
That each and every "peoples" who speak a different "language" should
have their own sovereign state?

-Patrick

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:03:49 GMT,  (Bill Vaughan)
wrote:

>The "native"
>Japanese numerals from 1 to 10 are:
>
>hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu, yottsu, itsutsu, muttsu, nanatsu, yattsu,
>kokonotsu, and too.

The curious thing about the native Japanese numbers is the use of
ablaut to denote the doubled quantity:

                    Old Japanese:
1: hito, 2: futa   (pito", puta)
3: mi,   6: mu     (mi, mu)
4: yo,   8: ya     (yo", ya)


==
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal                     ~ ~
Amsterdam                   _____________  ~ ~
                 |_____________|||

Patrick Chew > wrote:

>	Mand	Cant	Tois	Kor	Jap	Thai

>1	?i	yat	yIt	il	it$i	ni"N/-et
>2	@r	yi	Nei	i	ni	sO:N/yi-
>3	san	sa:m	lha:m	sam	san	sa:m
>4	sI"	sei	lhei	sa	$i	si
>5	?u	N	N	o	go	ha:
>6	liou	lUk	lUk	(L)juk	roku	hok
>7	chi	t$at	tIt	t$Il	$it$i	cet
>8	pa	pa:t	pa:t	p'al	hat$i	p&t
>9	ciu	kau	kiu	ku	ku/kyu	kau
>10	s.I"	sap	sIp	$Ip	dZu:	sIp

>	hrm... well.. there sems to be more than a surface similarity here..
>especially when one takes into account previous stages of the languages:

>Jap: it$i < *iti, $i < *si, $it$i < *siti. hat$i < *hati, dZuu < *zyuu
>Kor: il < *it, i < *Ni, o < *No, t$Il < *t$It, p'al < *p'at, $Ip < *sip
>Toi: lh < *s, *ts- > t

Yes, especially given the fact that Korean and Japanese borrowed these
numerals from Ancient Chinese...
 Japanese hat$i is from Old Japanese *pati, which is in fact Ancient
Chinese *pat. Pretty clumsy example, this list, I'd say!


Tanno Gerritsen

Bill Vaughan wrote:


:Well, the "common numbering system" argument might hold a little
:water, if true (though number words can be borrowed, cf. Japanese),
:but the "agglutinative" argument isn't worth much. Typology (eg

I agree. I assume that lexical evidence is presented when connecting
sumerian with the dene-caucasian languages, I just don't know
it and I would like to find out what it is. anybody at least have a 
reference?

:inflecting vs isolating vs agglutinative, or verb-subject-object(VSO)
:vs SOV vs SVO) is a useful way of describing present languages.
:However, there are many cases where known related languages have quite
:different types, and this casts doubt on the use of typology to show
:relation.


:It gets worse when you consider the opposite case -- languages that
:share a typology but are thought not to be related. For instance,
:Turkish, Japanese, and Tamil are strongly verb-final, but they are not
:considered to be related (some think Japanese may be very distantly
:related to Turkish, but that argument itself is mostly typological in

it was originaly typological, but quite a bit of lexical evidence
is now being presented to classify japanese as an altaic language.
the evidence includes regular sound correspondences and this is also 
used to shed light on the r/z l/*sh* problem in altaic. some think
japanese branched off from tungusic (manchu).

:nature). Agglutinating languages include Turkish, Zulu, Hungarian,
:Algonkian, and Inuit. I doubt these are related at all.

eskimo -aleut (inuit) and altaic (turkish, japanese?) are sometimes 
considered to be in a special branch of nostratic and the turcologist 
k. menges inculdes dravidian (tamil) in this branch as well, although 
many don't. menges even attempts to use dravidian examples to shed 
light on the r/z problem in altaic.

:It's a lot easier to prove that languages are related than that they
:are not. So maybe Sumerian is indeed related to Basque. Of course all
:languages are probably related through some unreconstructible "common
:world" ancestor -- the alternative would be truly absurd -- but that
:isn't what most people mean when they say language X is related to
:language Y.

I agree. the relationship of sumerian to other languages, like the
na-dene relationship I am inquiring about is in the superfamily level
and is distant and speculative.

Press Release
For Immediate Release
Contact:  Michael Vachon
Open Society Institute
(212) 887-0668

OSI-CROATIA UNDER ATTACK

New York-10 January 1997-The Open Society Institute-New York would like 
to
respond to the political attacks and legal accusations leveled against 
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Open Society Institute-Croatia in recent weeks by the Government and by
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 The Ministry of Finance formally accused OSI-Croatia and its officers 
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intentional evasion of taxes.  In addition, the media have reported that
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On December 7, President Tudjman publicly accused OSI-Croatia of
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- 30 -

Here is a more complete schedule for the Austin dance workshop featuring
Tima'r Sa'ndor and Erzse'bet teaching dances from Vajdaszentiva'ny and 
Rabako:z.

The schedule for the main teaching sessions of the workshop:

Day                   Date                  Time(s)                 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Friday              February 7:         7:00-10:00 P.M.          

Saturday            February 8:     9:00-12:00 and 1:30-5:00 

Sunday              February 9:         10:00-2:00 P.M.           
_______________________________________________________________________________


Additionally, we will have a ta'ncha'z on the evening of Saturday, February 8
from 8:00 P.M. until midnight featuring much LIVE music by the Koloras
ensemble of Austin.



For those who want to hang around Central Texas a bit longer, the Tima'rs
will be in town with us for a few more days, so we are also hosting a few
more teaching sessions focusing on further review and fine points of
the material taught over the weekend, PLUS, as an extra added bonus, a 
karikazo class.  Those sessions are scheduled as follows:

_______________________________________________________________________________
Sunday   February 9:   6:30-9:30 P.M. 

Monday   February 10: Evening Karikazo Session and gathering (times to be set) 

Tuesday  February 11:  8:00-9:30 P.M.           
_______________________________________________________________________________

The price for the workshop is $50.

For further information contact Yoshimi Masuo at (512)477-1282 or via email at



Hope to see you at the workshop!!

On 23 Jan 1997 02:33:45 GMT, fred hamori > wrote:

>Once you know the basis of the numbers in Sumerian you can see that it
>is related to FinnUgor and Hungarian. 

Really?
          
      Sumerian               Proto-Uralic (Finno-Ugric)

1.    dis^, dili, as^        *u"kte
2.    min [me-nu]            *kakte
3.    es^5 [is^-s^a-am]      *kolm-
4.    limmu [li-mu]          *nelja"-
5.    ia2 [i (ya?)]          *vitte-
6.    as^3 [a-s^u]           *kutte-
7.    imin [u-me-nu]
8.    ussu [u-sa-am]
9.    ilimmu [i-li-mu]
10.   u [ha-wu-mu]

20.   nis^
30.   us^u2
40.   nimin, nin5
50.   ninnu
60.   g~is^2, g~es^2
3600. s^ar2

(in square brackets early Sumerian pronunciation from a lexical list
found in Ebla).

>Almost every term has either a 
>related word or the number and the numbers have their meanings often..
>but not allways. The basic terms 1,10,100,1000 also are found little 
>changed. 

So what's the Sumerian for 100 and 1000?


==
Miguel Carrasquer Vidal                     ~ ~
Amsterdam                   _____________  ~ ~
                 |_____________|||