Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 134
Copyright (C) HIX
1994-11-14
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 *** HUNGARY *** #133 (fwd) (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: *** HUNGARY *** #133 (fwd) (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
3 Pataki (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
4 US Elections (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Pataki (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Pataki (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Pataki (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
8 The meaning of U.S. elections for Hungary and Europe (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
9 How to search for old posts (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: US Elections (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: *** HUNGARY *** #133 (fwd) (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)

+ - *** HUNGARY *** #133 (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Pannon writes:
> Or are we still lickin' our wounds over the election results? ;-)
I am, yes. It's not so much the Republican victory (what do you expect when
32% of the voters identified themselves as born-again Christians at the exit
polls -- if the Demos can't mobilize their constituencies they deserve what
they get) as Prop 187. It really hurts that it passed by such a landslide.
I'm sure the courts will throw it out, but the point is that a message has
been sent, indeed.  I'm also sorry to see one of the last politicians who
had the guts to oppose the death penalty voted out of office, even if the
winner is an ethnic Hungarian...

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: *** HUNGARY *** #133 (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 13 Nov 1994 01:00:44 -0800 Andras Kornai said:
>Joe Pannon writes:

>> Or are we still lickin' our wounds over the election results? ;-)
>I am, yes. It's not so much the Republican victory (what do you expect when
>32% of the voters identified themselves as born-again Christians at the exit
>polls -- if the Demos can't mobilize their constituencies they deserve what
>they get) as Prop 187. It really hurts that it passed by such a landslide.
>I'm sure the courts will throw it out, but the point is that a message has
>been sent, indeed.  I'm also sorry to see one of the last politicians who
>had the guts to oppose the death penalty voted out of office, even if the
>winner is an ethnic Hungarian...
>
>Andra1s Kornai

--This has little to do with Hungary, gentleman, and as one who has been
flamed for discussing non-Hungarian topics, I can't resist saying so.
Mentioning Pataki doesn't make the content Hungarian.

--At the same time, Mr. Kornai, things are not as bad--or good--as they
seem.  Most of the new Republicans replaced Democrats who were primarily
closet Republicans anyway--particularly in the South.  The chief outcomes
of the elections are two:

1.  Political labels in the past did not clearly indicate the convictions
of the wearer.  There are liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats.
With conservative Democrats coming out as Republicans, one's party label
is a bit more indicative than before.  If the trend increases, we will,
in fact, have a Liberal Party and a Conservative Party.  You may recall
that during Reagan's two terms, he never had a Republican majority in
both houses, but his legislation got passed with a lot of nominal
Democrats who supported it.  Reagan did have a Senate majority during
one term, but it was very slim--something on the order of 51-49 as I
recall, but never in the House of Representatives.

2.  Republicans will chair important committees that they didn't chair
before.  This will affect the committees' agendae and priorities.  This
may matter, but without veto-proof majorities in either house, it is
unlikely that the Republicans can do a whole lot of good--or harm,
depending on your politics.

Think about Proposition 187 a minute.  Very few countries--actually,
I can't think of any off hand, permit aliens to enjoy the same benefits
as citizens and legal aliens.  One cannot go to England and get free
medical care in the NHS unless his or her home country has a reciprocal
agreement with the UK.  Should one want to live in England as a resident
alien, he or she must guarantee that it is unlikely that he or she will
become a public charge.  Please try to convince me why I should pay taxes
to provide health care, welfare benefits, and education to anyone--even
a Hungarian--who is in the country illegally.  Can the U.S. become the
world's free lunch?

Charles
+ - Pataki (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Does anybody know the etimology of `Pataki'?

Haldun
+ - US Elections (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 13 Nov 1994 01:00:44 -0800 Andras Kornai said:

>32% of the voters identified themselves as born-again Christians at the exit
>polls --

Gee, how dare they!?

> ... as Prop 187. It really hurts that it passed by such a landslide.
> I'm also sorry to see one of the last politicians who
>had the guts to oppose the death penalty voted out of office, even if the
>winner is an ethnic Hungarian...

Well, too bad there were no other politically correct issues Andras
could identify with in this election.  My heart bleeds already.

Charles writes:

> --This has little to do with Hungary, gentleman, and as one who has been
> flamed for discussing non-Hungarian topics, I can't resist saying so.
> Mentioning Pataki doesn't make the content Hungarian.

That's OK, Charles, we don't have to be so dogmatic about it. ;-)
Especially when there is nothing else people talk about here.

> --At the same time, Mr. Kornai, things are not as bad--or good--as they
> seem.  Most of the new Republicans replaced Democrats who were primarily
> closet Republicans anyway--particularly in the South.  The chief outcomes
> of the elections are two:

I don't know about that, Charles!  Was Tom Foley a closet Republican?
Hardly! I don't know the Southern ones, but if we are to belive to the
media, the Republicans replacing the Demos in this election tend to be
a rather conservative lot.  Here, for instance, in WA, not by any
stretch of imagination a conservative state, a write-in Republican
candidate (Linda Smith) won the primary over the party-supported one and
then went on to beat a Tom Foley clone Democratic House Rep (Joleen
Unsoeld) in the general election.

What is also remarkable about this election, that to my knowledge no
incumbant Republican was unseated, not even moderate ones.  So this also
proves to me, that we did not just witness an anti-incumbant tide.

> Think about Proposition 187 a minute.  Very few countries--actually,
> I can't think of any off hand, permit aliens to enjoy the same benefits
> as citizens and legal aliens.

Right on!  I wonder if Hungary would permit it.
What I heard from the post-election surveys was that actually, something
like 30% of Hispanic voters of California also supported this
proposition.  I can see that, because legal immigrants sure must feel
angry when they are made to pay for benefits of illegals.

Of course, my real question is: where is INS in all of this?  It seems to
me that once illegals can be identified, INS should be called an act.
If they did, there would be no need for such Propositions like 187.

Haven't wee passed a legislation a few years ago that provided
legalization of some class of former illegals while at the same time
increasing sanctions against future illegal immigration (by requiring
employers to check immigration status, etc.)?  It seems to me that if
that law was enforced, we would also not need Prop. 187.  But because
the Feds don't do their jobs, border states, like California can't cope.
And that's why they needed Prop. 187 which, I am sure, is heading for
the Supreme Court.

Joe
+ - Re: Pataki (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Haldun asks:

> Does anybody know the etimology of `Pataki'?

Sure.  "Patak" means brook, or stream in Hungarian.  So, Pataki means
someone "from the brook, or stream".  It's quite a common name, somewhat
like "Brooks" in English, I guess.

Joe
+ - Re: Pataki (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe,

Thank you for the explanation. By etymology, however, I meant to ask if it
is a Hungarian or a loanword. Also, is the suffix `-i' a pure Hungarian
suffix?

Haldun
+ - Re: Pataki (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Haldun writes:

> Thank you for the explanation. By etymology, however, I meant to ask if it
> is a Hungarian or a loanword. Also, is the suffix `-i' a pure Hungarian
> suffix?

Sorry, I wasn't sure myself what you meant by it, so I picked what I
thought was the most likely.

I suspect "patak" is a Slavic loan word 'cause "potok" in Slovak is the
same as "patak" in Hungarian.  I don't know about the "-i" suffix.
Andras, I think, is a linguist, so he may have the last word on this.

Joe
+ - The meaning of U.S. elections for Hungary and Europe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The election results may have a closer connection to Hungary than we
discussed so far.  Not just for Hungary, but Hungary's neighborhood
as well.

I wonder what do you think about the following:
There might be a connection to between Clinton's decision to finally end
that silly arms embargo against B-H and the election results.  Is he
trying to ingratiate himself with a more hard-line Congress coming in?

What about Hungary's NATO membership?  Could that also be speeded up by
the new Congress?

I am not sure myself about the answers to these questions.  What do YOU
think is to be the likely course of the next Congress in foreign policy
matters such as these?

Joe
+ - How to search for old posts (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Last summer, someone posted to the list instructions on how to search the
list archives for old posts using boolean search terms. I seem to have lost
the disk on which I had saved those instructions. Could someone re-post them?
thanks,
   Heather Olsen
+ - Re: US Elections (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 13 Nov 1994 11:17:53 -0800 Joe Pannon said:
>
>I don't know about that, Charles!  Was Tom Foley a closet Republican?
>Hardly! I don't know the Southern ones, but if we are to belive to the
>media, the Republicans replacing the Demos in this election tend to be
>a rather conservative lot.

--That's probably true, Mr. Pannon, in your case.  In the South, the
situation is somewhat different.  Note that our Senator from Alabama
(hardly something to be proud of), Richard Shelby, turned Republican
after it was clear which way the wind was blowing.  Recall that Strom
Thurmond was a Democrat as was the Senator from Texas whose name I
can't remember because of the Alzheimer's.

>What is also remarkable about this election, that to my knowledge no
>incumbant Republican was unseated, not even moderate ones.  So this also
>proves to me, that we did not just witness an anti-incumbant tide.
>
--I agree.  I think that the liberals have taken a heavy hit.  They
have arrogantly forgotten--or ignored--the concerns of ordinary people.

>What I heard from the post-election surveys was that actually, something
>like 30% of Hispanic voters of California also supported this
>proposition.  I can see that, because legal immigrants sure must feel
>angry when they are made to pay for benefits of illegals.
>
--Sure!  Anybody who went through the procedure of getting a Green
Card and played by the rules hasn't to feel resentful.

>Of course, my real question is: where is INS in all of this?  It seems to
>me that once illegals can be identified, INS should be called an act.
>If they did, there would be no need for such Propositions like 187.
>
--I think that the problem is the long border.  There's just too many
empty spaces to patrol, and once the illegal is in the country, someone
will try to protect him or her, because they are a source of cheap labor.

Charles
+ - Re: *** HUNGARY *** #133 (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andra1s made reference in his recent posting to the winner [in New York]
being an ethnic Hungarian--

Hungarian American TV made the same error in its show today, although Pataki
also informed us that his father's father was born in Debrecen and his father's
mother in Kisva1rda.  The fact is that Pataki is Italian (and perhaps Irish) on
his mother's side, doesn't really speak Hungarian, and has a terrible Hungarian
accent.

So call him an ethnic Hungarian if you want, but let's keep the multicultural
reality in mind.

Cheers,
Be1la

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