Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 404
Copyright (C) HIX
1995-08-21
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 College Courses in Hungary (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: College Courses in Hungary (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
3 Anyone in Budapest on Internet? (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Arpad fiai (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Arpad fiai (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
6 E-MAIL ADDRESS OF LISZT ACADEMY (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
7 Happy Saint Stephen's Day! (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
8 Arpad unokai (mind)  97 sor     (cikkei)

+ - College Courses in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Can anyone in Hungary help me find college courses that can be given to
American teachers in English and where these teachers can get credit for
the courses.   Please respond to  or write to me at
Judi Aronson, UFT/TCC 260 Park Ave. N.Y., N.Y.  10010
+ - Re: College Courses in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

You can go to the International Center of NYU (their extention in Hungary
is called the Central European University) and inquire through them.

On Sun, 20 Aug 1995, Marc Warren wrote:

> Can anyone in Hungary help me find college courses that can be given to
> American teachers in English and where these teachers can get credit for
> the courses.   Please respond to  or write to me at
> Judi Aronson, UFT/TCC 260 Park Ave. N.Y., N.Y.  10010
>
+ - Anyone in Budapest on Internet? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I was twice in Budapest so now I want to know more stuff for my third visist...

so don't hesitate! contact me!
+ - Re: Arpad fiai (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I will reply to one point here, and will try to keep it brief.

On Fri, 18 Aug 1995, Tiha_von_Ghyczy wrote:

> Dear list subscribers,
>
  [Much discussion omitted]

> The final chain in (my simplified rendering of) his argument is linguistic.
> It is based on relatively new insights in the dynamics of the languages
> of the conqueror and the conquered. In situations similar to AP's invasion
> where a relatively small force subdues a larger settled population, the
> language of the conquerOR disappears (Mongol rule over China).
>
> In other words if AP=M, Hungarian would have disappeared and we would
> speak Avarian presumably.
   [much more omitted]

By this logic, the French and the British should be speaking Celtic
(as oppossed to a descendent of Latin or Germanic).

There are many more factors then mere numbers in determining which
language dominates.  Much has to do with social and political status
associated with the languages.  I don't think that there were that many
Romans in Gaul compared to the number of Celts.  Examples like this could
be repeated all over.

I don't think that it is a nationalist issue.  I suspect that a nationalist
would prefer an argument showing Hungarians in Europe for a very long time.

My advice is don't trust any one book.  Although I don't know the history,
my guess is that if there were Finno-ugrian speakers in the Carpathians
prior to AP, then the historical record would be as full of mention of
them as it is of references to Finns during the same period.

-jeff

Jeffrey Goldberg
    Email:      
    WWW:        <http://WWW.Cranfield.ac.uk/public/cc/cc047/>;
+ - Re: Arpad fiai (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

History is created by historians who want to explain the present of their
society by creating a suitable past for it using past facts that fit
their theoretical framework. Still their endeavors are limited by the
availibilty of "historical" facts.  What are the linguistic facts
(facts that are extant in contemporary documents as opposed to "logical"
interpolations) concerning the Carpathian basin around 895 B.C.?

In the past of the Carpathian basin there exists no written evidence of
Ugric (Hungarian) or Avar (Turkic) words prior to 895. On the other hand there
are plenty of well attested geographic names of Slavic origin. In addition
"Arpad fiai" borrowed hundreds of Slavic loanwords in the tenth century
during the process of building their first state there; words from "kiraly"
and "udvarispan" to "szolga" and "rab."

There is only one feasible concusion that can be drawn from this
linguistic evidence; namely that the conquering people of Arpad found a
sizeable local population in the Carpathian basin and that this
pre-conquest population spoke some sort of Slavic dialect.

On the other hand it is quite possible that the ruling Arpad dynasty and
perhaps their tribe spoke a Turkic language while some other tribes spoke
Ugric. The fact that they needed a "verszerzodes," (i.e. a blood oath of
alliance) at the time of their arrival seem to indicate that the tribes
were of mixed origin (Turkic and Ugric?) who were not related by "blood."

An other fact is that the early Hungarians were quite tolerant
concerning ethnic diversity within the borders of their state. Their own
mixed ethnic origin goes a long way in explaining this wide-reaching tolerance.

Gustav Bayerle
Central Eurasian Studies
+ - E-MAIL ADDRESS OF LISZT ACADEMY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Does anyone know the internet address of the Liszt Ferenc Music Academy in
Budapest?  I would be most grateful if I could discover it!
+ - Happy Saint Stephen's Day! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The title says it all. Today, the 20th of August is one of
Hungary's national holidays, remembering King Stephen the Saint
from the Arpad dynasty, Hungary's first crowned Christian king.

--
mailto:
http://mineral.umd.edu/~gotthard/
+ - Arpad unokai (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Many thanks for your comments which I have found very valuable.

If the subject matter is of as much interest to you as it is to me, you may
not find my persistence too bothersome.

As Jeffrey Goldberg has pointed out, one should try not to trust any one
book. With regards to Hungarian history (pre-conquest) I have come to
distrust all. Makkay's is the first that has no apparent hidden agenda. There
is no attempt to somehow link us with some type of "glorious" myth. In all
other works, I could not suppress the suspicion that an attempt is being made
to create a "heroic" account of the arrival of the Magyars.

With due respect to Bertold Brecht, we shouldn't need heroic accounts of our
history even if they were based in fact. They are distasteful if they are
not.

Gustav Bayerle notes:

<An other fact is that the early Hungarians were quite tolerant
concerning ethnic diversity within the borders of their state. Their own
mixed ethnic origin goes a long way in explaining this wide-reaching
tolerance.>

Not only do I fully agree but I would also like to ask you along the same
logic the following questions.

A. How does a language survive from Ural to Carpathians? Clearly the Magyars
had not conquered and ruled over other people along the journey. The chances
of survival on the steppe would have been slim if the Magyars had been a
war-like people. Do not their tolerance and the above consideration suggest
that they had made a successful strategy of seeking the protection of
stronger forces? If that is true why should they start raiding the West?
Isn't that totally out of character?

B. These raids started soon after Arpad's conquest. The raids were entirely
Turkic in character. (This argument is used to explain why the Magyars were
"mistakenly" called "onogur".) Isn't it reasonable then to assume then that
Arpad's arrival introduced a new Turkic element which had not been present
before?

Gustav Bayerle also raises an important point about the pre-conquest
population of the Carpathian basin:

<There is only one feasible concusion that can be drawn from this
linguistic evidence; namely that the conquering people of Arpad found a
sizeable local population in the Carpathian basin and that this
pre-conquest population spoke some sort of Slavic dialect. >

Makkay comes to a very similar conclusion arguing that the pre-conquest
population consisted of Magyar, Avarian(Turkic), Slavic and conceivably
Germanic(Gepidae) speaking people; and that the Magyars must have constituted
the predominant element. In my mind this multi-ethnicity is consistent with
the fact that the Carpathian basin was a very large and attractive place to
settle in and that consequently people, once there, tended to stay put.

The Hungarian language came to dominate. As Jeffrey Goldberg points out
referring to the theory about the ascendancy of the language of the
conquered:

<By this logic, the French and the British should be speaking Celtic
(as oppossed to a descendent of Latin or Germanic).
There are many more factors then mere numbers in determining which
language dominates.>

This is of course very true. Makkay quotes C. Renfrew as the source of this
theory and adds that the latter specifically excludes Hungarian as a
contradiction. That is because Renfrew assumed that the traditional account
of Hungarian history was correct and that the Hungarians were the conquerors.
(The is an interesting detail).

I have not yet studied Renfrew's work but judging by Makkay's comments, his
theory is subject to very specific boundary conditions which, I presume,
exclude Gallia and many other occurences of clashing languages.

In plain words, I take this theory to imply that the <smart conqueror>
doesn't try to suppress the language of the locals. To the contrary. The
foreign ruler (in Turkic tradition) relies more and more on locals in his
immediate entourage. He fears treason by his own more than rebellion of the
vanquished. I find this intuitively very appealing.

According to Makkay then, the Magyars had arrived earlier (he speaks of up to
200 years earlier) and had not been Turkic allies for such a long time as
implicit in the traditional theory. This too helps, in my mind at least, to
explain why the language exists at all.

The extensive borrowing of Turkic words in Hungarian on one hand, and its
decidedly Ugric grammar on the other, do seem to suggest an intensive
encounter between the two languages but one of limited duration.

Excuse me for rambling on like this but your objective replies among a
plethora of very unfriendly invective gave me encouragement. How should I
proceed? To whom to turn for guidance in this matter?

I would love to invite Makkay to the US (and contribute to the funding) if
there would be a more general interest.

Many thanks for your patience and best regards,        tiha

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