Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 1025
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-06-11
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Soros Foundation - Marshall Plan - (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Soros Foundation - Marshall Plan - (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Soros Foundation - Marshall Plan - (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Soros Foundation - Marshall Plan - (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Soros Foundation - Marshall Plan - (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Soros Foundation - Marshall Plan - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Unlike recenly, I really and truly intend for this to go to the group at
large ...

Amos ...At 08:14 PM 11/06/97 -0400, you wrote:
<snip Szalai, some of Amos'>
>   I am pro human rights, pro economic fairness,pro democracy,pro social
>safety nets,  and all those things.  The difference is that I managed to
>ask,as most people do,the next question in my late teens/early twenties.
>Who is going to pay for all these?  There are not enough "rich" folks to
>tax in order to cover the expenses.And if you over-tax the corporations,
>they go out of business - and guess who will suffer? Those people who'll
>be unemployed.Some left leaning folks just have problems making the next
>step. It is nice to be idealistic, but not when reality is in your face.
>   The Hungarians are whining because  they want to have the system when
>they didn't have to pay the true price for things. The government did.It
>was very nice to retire at 50, 55, or 60.  But what national economy can
>pay for that? Besides, Hungarians have always whined, it is a habit.  We
>hear about all the hardships,  of which there are  many to be sure,  but
>how hard can it be when many  go abroad for vacations,  are building ex-
>pensive houses, and buy cars.  Please don't tell me that those are basic
>necessities.  Budapest is burried under cars and stinks because of them.
>Why does one need a car in Budapest is beyond me. Show off, that's why.
>   So, please, don't tell us what supposed to be, tell us how to achieve
>them.
[...]
Thanks Amos ... second your thoughts.... all of them ....

Seems that many amongst us, fail to realize and/or actually accept such
 ... (sorry Joe) ...
Regards,
Aniko
+ - Re: Soros Foundation - Marshall Plan - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Now that you have lowered the discussion to sloganeering, Joe, let's
try to look at the real world for a change.

Joe Szalai wrote:
> Oh puleeze, Amos!  If the shoe was on the other foot, and Stalin offered to
> rebuild Europe on a "communist" model, would Churchill and Roosevelt
> excepted the aid, or would they have made it 'political'?  My 'marxist
> orientation' may mislead me, but it appears that your pro-capitalist world
> view blinds you, and you believe that there is only one way, only one
> truth.  If only life was that simple.

   The problem with  the above paragraph  is that neither  Churchill nor
Roosevelt has refused to participate in the Marshall Plan.Therefore,your
argument is nothing short of moot.
   Everybody is a true believer, the difference is only in degree. Yours
is as far from reality, as possible.

> And you need to remove your pro-capitalist blinders.  If you did, you'd see
> that I'm pro human rights, pro economic fairness, pro democracy, pro social
> safety nets, and pro a whole lot of other things.  But, until you remove
> your blinders, you won't see it.

   I am pro human rights, pro economic fairness,pro democracy,pro social
safety nets,  and all those things.  The difference is that I managed to
ask,as most people do,the next question in my late teens/early twenties.
Who is going to pay for all these?  There are not enough "rich" folks to
tax in order to cover the expenses.And if you over-tax the corporations,
they go out of business - and guess who will suffer? Those people who'll
be unemployed.Some left leaning folks just have problems making the next
step. It is nice to be idealistic, but not when reality is in your face.
   The Hungarians are whining because  they want to have the system when
they didn't have to pay the true price for things. The government did.It
was very nice to retire at 50, 55, or 60.  But what national economy can
pay for that? Besides, Hungarians have always whined, it is a habit.  We
hear about all the hardships,  of which there are  many to be sure,  but
how hard can it be when many  go abroad for vacations,  are building ex-
pensive houses, and buy cars.  Please don't tell me that those are basic
necessities.  Budapest is burried under cars and stinks because of them.
Why does one need a car in Budapest is beyond me. Show off, that's why.
   So, please, don't tell us what supposed to be, tell us how to achieve
them.

> When asked whether or not we are Marxists, our position is the same as that
> of a physicist or a biologist who is asked if he is a "Newtonian," or if he
> is a "Pasteurian."
>            --- Che Guevara

   Quoting Vladimir and Che won't prove  how strong a supporter you are
of democracy. Those quotes (you have quoted Lenin to Charles) may prove
many things, but democracy is not one of them.
                                                Amos
+ - Re: Soros Foundation - Marshall Plan - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:20 AM 6/11/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 02:44 PM 6/10/97 -0400, Charles Vamossy wrote:
>
><snip>
>>And Stalin was no Truman, nor Molotov a Marshall.  The last thing that
>>would have occured to the Generalissimo and his Marxist gang was to
>>actually spend money on other countries, rather than strip them bare, take
>>their last ounce of meat and butter and have them pay reparations.  Indeed,
>>had a Russian actually suggested such an idea, he would have quickly found
>>himself building Socialism in the vast open spaces of Siberia.
>
>You are religious in your devotion to Americana and your views on history
>are black and white, and Orwellian.  It's simplicity must offer you a lot
>of comfort.  Unfortunately, insight, is a totally different horse.
>
>Joe Szalai
>

Huh?

>"To rely upon conviction, devotion, and other excellent spiritual
>qualities -- that is not to be taken seriously in politics."
>         --- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
>
>

Good old Vlagyimir Iljics...  he'd be happy to know at least one person
still remembers him well enough to quote him.
+ - Re: Soros Foundation - Marshall Plan - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:47 PM 6/11/97 -0400, Charlie Vamossy wrote:

>Good old Vlagyimir Iljics...  he'd be happy to know at least one person
>still remembers him well enough to quote him.

He'd be even happier if someone put him where his ideas are: into a grave.

gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Soros Foundation - Marshall Plan - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:44 PM 6/10/97 -0400, Charles Vamossy wrote:

<snip>
>And Stalin was no Truman, nor Molotov a Marshall.  The last thing that
>would have occured to the Generalissimo and his Marxist gang was to
>actually spend money on other countries, rather than strip them bare, take
>their last ounce of meat and butter and have them pay reparations.  Indeed,
>had a Russian actually suggested such an idea, he would have quickly found
>himself building Socialism in the vast open spaces of Siberia.

You are religious in your devotion to Americana and your views on history
are black and white, and Orwellian.  It's simplicity must offer you a lot
of comfort.  Unfortunately, insight, is a totally different horse.

Joe Szalai

"To rely upon conviction, devotion, and other excellent spiritual
qualities -- that is not to be taken seriously in politics."
         --- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

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